Suboxone Withdrawal / Taper 101
My Suboxone Taper...
I have detoxed or gone thru the hell-ish withdrawal off of "Pain Killers / Opiates" 3 times. My last and final time (which was my 4th) was off the suboxone after being on it for 2 yrs and about 9 months... Just some background so you know I'm not some novice putting my 2 cents in... Now, straight to what you are here for; some info on what an experience might be like for you coming off the sub or (suboxone).
My 6 Month Suboxone Taper:
1) During 2 yrs and about 9 months on suboxone I went from 16 mg (being at 16mg daily for that time) to 8 mg pretty quick with really no problems, really zero problems. This was not planned exactly. I just didn't need that much...I felt. Stayed at 8 mg for about 1 1/2 years and then went from 8 mg to 4 mg in a couple months. NO PROBLEMS AT ALL.... BUT AGAIN I TOOK "MY" time.
2) In a 6 month period I went from 4 mg to 3 mg.. I then tapered to 2 mg in a few months. I did this and adjusted from 2 mg to 3 mg down to 1 mg....back and forth till I felt right at 2 mg...I did the taper, I went at my pace... I didn't let anyone else "push me". The final month or so I went from 2 mg to 1 mg then to .50..... I only felt a little shady when I dropped big amounts; like when I would drop from 3 mg to 1 mg to see how it would feel. I suggest you don't do this. You don't feel it right away, you feel it 3 or so days later... It's not bad though...you can adjust and do a 25 minute quick fix with a chip off your suboxone pill to make you feel better. It's funny how the "quick fix" is...but what a pain in the ass it is when it comes time to the ultimate repair work...ie. when you have to take the jump and get off the opiates or suboxone.
*Quick note* 90% of what I have written below regarding my taper process and what I went through while coming off the sub was from my notes / journal during my taper / withdrawal from the sub... I have edited only a little bit because I now have a clearer head and some of the thoughts I had when writing this were blurred. The following is what I went thru... Your taper and withdrawal process might go smoother or worse. Talk with your doctor first, if you can. If you have a stubborn or ignorant doctor, get a new Doctor before you taper or even if you just want to continue on suboxone.
One BIG point, just from my opinion. There is nothing wrong with long term suboxone treatment or even lifelong treatment with suboxone; again that's just my opinion... I just suggest that you should only quit if you feel like you have changed YOUR life SO much that, the person you were, is no longer alive.....or what I mean, your old self is gone mentally.
SO....
3) Ok, D-Day minus 7: I went from .50 mg to .25 mg and actually less, the rest went in the toilet and I had alot of suboxone left. I suggest getting a $1.99 7 day pill box for your taper (that's what my girlfriend did for me). Sounds f-ing lame but it helps you keep track of the dropping process so you don't cheat (you'll only be f-ing yourself if you think about it and it'll just take longer). It's just human nature to make yourself "feel better" and subconsciously you'll take "just tiny bit more" and that will F**K things up. I am not a pro at the taper thing, I f***ed up a bunch of times; went up down, back and forth etc. Will power helped but by my girlfriend helped me alot by breaking the sub up and putting them in the weekly pill reminder. Support is great put ultimately it's all you in the end. I did feel a little "different" but not uncomfortable at .25 mg but I was ok. I think it was more mental than anything at this point.
4) Last .25mg at 8am on a Sunday morning. Went all day with NO PROBLEMS, slept fine and even had a steak that night for dinner.
5) (First +24hours) Monday Day: Morning...woke up fine, nervous though like I thought literally I would wake up with Death standing in the corner. Went about Monday ok. By the afternoon I was feeling pretty good, Cocky even.."Yeah F*** everything I read online, it ain't bad, my taper worked or will"... Monday Night, actually slept ok.... Nervous still but ambien works great (I had written on my original site that Ambien CR "could or probably" would work better, NOPE, my bad....Bull Shit advice on my part!. Regular ambien kicks your ass right away and puts you right to sleep and doesn't "slowly" release like Ambien CR does; I suggest regular ambien). An additional piece of advice and you can take it or leave it. I would put the regular ambien in my mouth, but then bite it in two. For me it seemed to work faster and when you feel bad...every minute seems to count.
6) (Day 2) Tuesday: Morning...Uh...Thought I was ok, I was very optimistic. Lost some speed and felt a little slow. Tuesday mid afternoon felt like I was weighted down. Uh oh... This is where I am suppose to write about how day 3 was all out Thermo Nuclear War, The Cuban Missile Crisis Revisited and or then the 7th Seal of The Bible was opened and GOD said unto me "I shall let loose many apocalyptic pigeons and they shall shit all over your custom chopper...." and God smiled and it was ALL GOOD.... Well... Let's talk about day 3.
7) (Day 3 early am) Wednesday: Day 3 is where I should now be telling you that the 72 hour half life, once it's up is not that bad. Ok, sorry, just telling you the truth. The missiles launched...Castro, Khrushchev, Kennedy never worked things out and the pigeons did shit on my chopper. I woke up Wednesday morning around 3am or so and my girlfriend was talking to me, I freaked out I guess. I was crying, shaking, sweating...legs were all jumping crazy style... I was in pretty bad shape. Killed the situation though and went into negotiations with another ambien and broke out the xanax or the big guns to suppress the living nightmare. (suggestion: If you got xanax (from a Doctor), take them (not to much or don't take them if you have had some addiction issues with xanax / benzos), don't take them forever also, just during this whole withdrawal process; so don't stress about the f***ing posts on how you can get hooked on them; I mean come on, we're talking about a 2-3 week time frame here). 35 minutes later I was asleep and slept ok. Off of regular opiates, this would have never happened, being able to sleep so quickly even with the help of ambient and xanax.
8) (Day 3 continued) Wednesday continued: Morning, woke up like I had the flu and just the flu. No flu X's 100, no crawly crazy feeling...surprisingly and thinking about it now; the cold sweats were not that bad either but I did get them. I did have restless legs so I just went with it. It wasn't out of control, it just bugged. . Another thing, I was and had been eating even though I was forcing it.
(Day 3 continued) Wednesday Mid-Day: Not good, same feeling, energy now going bankrupt. Split town Wednesday night to a small place in outside of town and was there from then on out, or thru the somewhat ruff-stuff.
(Day 3 continued) Wednesday night: Slept ok, took 1 ambien and 1 (one) 2 mg xanax before bed.
9) (Day 4) Thursday: Energy was gone, did ZERO except watch "suspenseful" movies to keep my mind occupied during just miserable, but bare-able conditions, bare-able to a degree I would say, still f-ing sucked. Went for a quick walk that night and felt ok during that time. No major stomach problems though, so laying around was not a major hassle. Let me add, the stomach issues were not a "zero issue" but they were not horrible like coming off of oxy, vics or a full agonist.
10) (Day 5) Friday: Felt ok actually when I woke up...and felt ok, still shitty but "ok" for most of the day. Went for like 5 walks and mixed it up with very short jogs (like 100 yards) throughout the whole day. I was able to do this due to positive thinking though along with being angry about having to go thru this whole deal...now looking back on it.
Walking or just doing anything physical; this makes the feeling or withdrawal symptoms go away fast for a short period of time though. Even when you feel like you have zero energy to do anything; you just have to do it! Trust me, it'll help when it comes night time / sleeping. Any tiny bit of help is better than nothing, hu? You also have to force yourself to eat. I did eat and the problems that usually follow with full blown opiates were mild but not good. The stomach issues I had with full opiate agonist withdrawals is what I really hated, everything just going thru you and in turn this makes you so weak. The Suboxone, even after almost 3 years on it, didn't give me the hardcore stomach issues I have had before.
This condition of diarrhea dehydrates you and makes the "healing" process take longer. This is just common f-ing sense...but as we all know; when you have no appetite it's just f-ing tough to think about food. I Ate pasta, lots of scrambled eggs, cheese and toast...I know, sounds stupid. Eating this shit would have killed me and go thru me while detoxing off of full opiate agonists (like pain meds, full opiates etc...). Since I have been thru the real thing 3 other times and knowing how bad it could be; I thought "What can make it any worse so might as well eat as much high protein and high fiber stuff as I can".
I was getting cocky again and stayed this way. If I felt I wasn't hungry... I ate, if I didn't want to walk..., I walked (I sound like Forest Gump?)....and when I thought I felt ok I had a drink (not a good idea and I don't suggest it at all). I drank (alcohol to be clear) Friday night and woke up Saturday feeling like I was back to how I felt on Thursday...ok, my bad on my part. Keep in mind you are fighting to keep your body a float a long with trying to keep your mind together and on coarse so, again....don't mess with anything that can trip you up or that puts you back.
11) (Day 6) Saturday: Relaxed all day, went on my walks, ate, walked...ate... laid around and so on. Energy level still low, confusion, loss of creativity and in addition my anxiety level was running pretty high. Where I was taking my time to do this was up in the mountains, so there was snow there...it was very cold... I actually was punching snow, like the hard packed shit. I did this cause I thought it would help my brain release some kind of endorphins... Not sure if it really worked, cut my knuckles up pretty good though, but it did get my mind off of how I was feeling (which was like shit) even if it was just for a few minutes. The stupid things we do out of desperation...
12) (Day 7) Sunday: Felt.....nothing. Not good, not bad....just nothing. That is better than feeling like shit I guess. Maybe I did feel like shit but I literally felt like I was in a fog. This part is hard to explain... I was just brain dead it felt like. I did concern me at the time.
13) (Day 8) Monday: woke up 3am wired. Wide awake. Monday was foggy and I was so tired from lack of sleep. Still felt shady like Sunday but now I couldn't sleep at night or during the day. My energy levels were still low. This is what I didn't get. I would be so tired during the day and the previous week I could sleep. Now I was tired all day and come 10:00pm when I wanted to go to bed I couldn't sleep at all, even with ambien.
14) (Day 9) Tuesday: Though I did sleep or had slept kind of, it had been so light that I remember even being in a slight dream state at like 1am and thinking "I am not getting any REM (rapid eye movement) sleep". I am no expert but I do read enough to know that getting a deep good night sleep and being in that REM state is when your body really does the repairing of itself and this is important, obviously. Being at day 9 and with night 7, day 8 and night 8 being the same, I felt like I was leveling out and that I would have to put up with this unfortunate now barely bare-able state for a while.
I could function but I was very jittery, confused, dizzy and when I walked up a flight of stairs, I would get a bouncing motion in my brain. This had not happened before coming off of hard opiates ie. being jittery, wired, fog like confusion and not able to sleep. Keep in mind, hard opiate withdrawals, sleep is questionable....it's like you are so out of it your body shuts down and makes you sleep or when you want to sleep that is when the shear nightmare hits and you are kicking like a mule and paranoia / anxiety is at its peak.
Also, I kept thinking that I was at like day 14 (when I was really at day 9). Keep in mind that the half life of suboxone / buprenorphine is 72 hours and you don't feel "like shit" till day 3 or so. Even though I consciously knew what day I was really at I couldn't break this feeling or thought. Any other opiate / pain med withdrawal lasts a minimum of 11 bad days, or it had for me. Off regular oxy, vics, etc... When you stop regular opiates let's say in the morning, you feel like shit that afternoon... You knew that the w/d's started and that the clock was ticking till you'd relapse or if you hung in there, you could be in the clear in 11 or so days. Off of full blown opiates I would feel shady for 11 or 12 days and bounce back fast after that (with 3 days of feeling a little off my rocker after day 11 or 12)... Don't get me wrong though, suboxone is still the best way to go cause it gives you time to break that "habit" and get your life back to normal. Plus as I'll write about this in another post; the sub detox is more of a pillow effect even though it feels like it lags due to the first 3 days of being in the clear, then it hits you, then it lags or drags on. I would take the suboxone route every time though...much safer.
(Day 9 continued) Tuesday afternoon and evening: After eating good, keeping myself force-ably hydrated and being overly stressed about real life situations; I was getting worn down mentally. I was at this point questioning was this going to go on for weeks? I wondered... "Am I going to be one of those people that I had read about in the "OH SO optimistic forums who took suboxone and that SOMEONE FRIENDS' COUSINS' DOG WHO SPEAKS ONLY ANCIENT LATIN had gone thru 4-8 WEEKS of w/d's before they started feeling even close to ok again due to the LONG half life"? Then you get the following line at the end of these idiots overly negative post..."Oh and by the way....everyone is different though so you might be ok". Wow! Supportive, negative, stupid and totally contradicting. These kind of comments really F**K you up; cause you now are wondering "Shit, am I going to be ok or am I going to go thru hell?...Is there any middle or gray area"? Bottom line for me... I felt like shit, but not like I was in the literal sense of hell like regular opiates... The suboxone w/d's, it just f**king bugged... I felt just so numb and brain dead. I guess I would say at this point I was really wondering "Did I maybe do some damage to my brain"? (This didn't happen though, just telling you what I was thinking and feeling at that time).
15) (Day 10) Wednesday: Woke up Wednesday and am feeling "normal" again, kind of, or so I thought. Feeling numb, no thoughts, zero creativity, didn't want to do anything and if I did I couldn't think of something to do. I was also still dizzy or had this bouncing motion. I want to add this also, not only did I feel my brain bouncing, but I would also visually see a bouncing motion, very bizarre and it did make me nervous.
At this point, I thought I was or should be in the second stage (whatever that means) of coming out of this. Cause of the lack of good sleep, I think or I now know I was suffering from sleep deprivation. Wednesday did not improve, got more tired, edgy, jittery and felt like I was wired on a coffee IV drip nonstop. What the F**K, am I going backwards? It's this back and forth feeling... One day you feel like shit, the next day for a few hours you feel ok... Then it's back to the same shit, of feeling, just that... like shit. Then new things start to show up, confusion...muscle aches. Hey, I want to clear something up. I would not classify them as "muscle aches" it was more like the cross section of my shoulders, my neck and the base of my skull were soar and cold? It was just f-ing annoying.
(Day 10 continued) Wednesday afternoon and night: This was getting ridiculous, almost getting worse. Stomach was somewhat ok though, I felt soar across the top of my shoulders and looking back I had during this whole time. I guess this was the crawly soar feeling from the suboxones' point of view, which I was cool with compared to a full agonist effect / w/d's. At this point of time (Day 10) I just had shit I had to do, that I had to get done and I had to get back to normal, not only physically but also mentally and work wise.
Venting time for Day 10: At this point or day 10 of being in the withdrawal process, this is what I was thinking.
"Since I had tapered so much and for so long, I expected or felt like I WAS OWED a very easy way out. Hey, I have been off all opiates for almost 3 years, I changed my life, I f*****g did my time, my taper and I changed my WHOLE F***ING LIFE! I DID THIS ON MY OWN, I DECIDED TO GET CLEAN WITH OUT FORCE, WITH OUT SOME LINGERING CONSEQUENCE that if I didn't get clean something would happen. I changed my life cause I WANTED TO! I don't owe anyone or have to pay up for anything, I have done my time...I DESERVE a free ride...." I wasn't talking to God, the Easter bunny or some fat clay pot dude... I was yelling at my past, the person I was, the choices I made. That person is still a part of me and either way, both of us co-signed on this "36 month loan" willingly.... Got to pay up sometime hu? My time was up. It's either "Pay up or keep charging", I opted to pay up.
Keep in mind the effects that suboxone (an antagonist) and agonist opiates themselves have on the brain when it comes time to face the problem. It's like the IRS and worse...They don't seem to care about time, excuses or circumstances; one way or another you're going to have to pay up. New phrase: Death, Taxes and then there are Opiates.
(Day 10 night time) Sleep was the same. Light sleep but what was pissing me off now is that I had felt like REALLY ok a couple times for maybe 30 minutes here or 45 minutes there. It was now just a tease. Regular opiates, from my experience don't do this as I have said. When you jump out of the plane with straight opiates you don't have a parachute and you're gonna hit the rocks hard. When you jump with suboxone you have a few positive options.
#1: You get to pull the cord at 25′ off the deck
#2: You have time at least to think about what you are going to do...
#3: That you get to pull a cord at all.
Still, I am not taking anything back I have said, it was still, in retrospect 90 Xs easier or let me put it this way....smoother than the hard crash off regular opiates where Hell feels like a resort. I'm just bitching and explaining what "I" went through...
16) Day 11: Thursday: The day was chaotic, things had to get done, I still felt the same though, confused, dizzy, anxiety, mentally and physically tired but unfortunately "tough shit" things had to get handled. So with an overstressed day, the lack of sleep, something was going to break and at Day 11, sure as hell isn't gonna be me. I thought at this point "Worse case scenario, Day 15 or 16 would be better, so only a few more days".
Thursday evening: Going thru my e-mails while my 4yr old son was in the hospital and while I had been at the hospital for 2 whole days (while feeling like shit and feeling confused). I had taken a small break from at least 3 of the 5 w/d feelings by staying busy and having to handle at the least 7 out of 10 things I had to do work wise to to keep my house; it was now 7pm at night. I was though still working at 110mph cause I had to... and the stress level I was at was still way high when...something came to my attention in a very subtle way.
About 30 minutes had passed while in this unusual work mode and I just realized something, the gun (w/d feelings) was NOT at my forehead anymore; I couldn't see it or feel it. I didn't have the anxiety or that threat in my face or feeling that any minute I would start feeling really shitty again. Being in a crowded environment at the time, with family and staff around (I was working on my laptop so it was pretty mellow) I literally looked left... and then right... and I mean this literally. I was thinking any second the gun is going to go off or the situation of 3 bullets and hearing "MEOW, MEOW" like from the movie the Deer Hunter was going to be the threat and anxiety that had been there the past 11-12+ days. I let myself relax, I let my muscles relax and I "figuratively" pulled the trigger and thought about what withdrawal symptoms I should be feeling... Just thinking that I felt like I had a 50/50 chance of the gun going off.... I heard a click. They seemed to be gone... (I was still not out of the woods or in the clear... I was still foggy but not really feeling that hard crappy feeling).
Thursday night: I was burnt out. Holy s**t I actually felt wiped out without feeling drained out. There was actually conversations going on between two old friends in my head, Officer Neuron and Lt. Receptor were talking and seemed to be having a beer. It's like 2 old friends that hadn't seen each other due to a falling out and now were shooting the shit and patching things up. I went home, and fell asleep EASY. This was the first heavy sleep I had in a week or more. Keep in mind I was always drained, but sleep at night was just impossible.
17) (Day 12) Friday: Woke up early that morning and I woke up tired. That was a big deal cause feeling tired from waking up was a big difference from being tired from lack of sleep. It's then that I realized I might be in the clear. By about 11am or so I realized I got a Green light on day 12 (not 100% but enough that I could start to move on). Mentally / physically I was at 90%, I still had a slight sourness in my shoulders but nothing that I cared about or that bugged me to the point that I couldn't concentrate on things.
I still felt around 90% but it's a hell of alot better than having felt at like 80%-85% and overall mentally feeling like I was regressing or deteriorating by 5% everyday. So Day 12 was for me the end of this s**tty ordeal (to a certain degree). I can say now of course that looking back on it, I don't think it was that bad. Again, most of all the stuff I posted up here was from my notes / journal I kept. It kind of helps to keep one and check it to see your progress day to day.....I didn't go over mine though or check my progress... I just kept notes. I was just thinking common sense wise especially if you have to go thru w/d's on your own (either way even if you have support, you really are going at it alone); it' just s a good idea to see your progress so you have some kind of support even if it's your own.
I didn't feel 100% till day 25... Listen, what I mean by this is that at day 25, I felt back to normal...Kind of.... To elaborate on this; it's hard to feel 100% after years of opiate dependence even if suboxone is an antagonist instead of an agonist. You can use these terms but these words don't mean shit to your f-ing brain...all your brain knows is that "the opiate bliss was there and now it's gone"....and big terms, definitions and so on are.....just words to us...but they don't mean shit to our minds... Our brains function on what it feels is normal or how our choices that WE have made have influenced how it thinks it should be working.
Suboxone can be a great tool so you can take a break from your drug of choice, from the PIECE OF SHIT PEOPLE that may have influenced your life...from the DOCTORS that push the oxy's, vics, percs, fentanyl etc for just stupid reasons "You got a headache, here is an 80mg Oxy, you'll feel much better and so will my wallet"...from the personal CHOICES you made if you got on this rollercoaster willingly or not.... Maybe something happened though where if you had to take them cause of a real medical issue, they (the doctors) either keep you on them, which is a majority of the cases due to commission, misinformation and or they yank you off them after the cow has been milked cause they don't want their DOPE sales license cancelled.... Suboxone can get you back on track ...
The above paragraph sounds like a f***ing commercial BUT, just so you know, I don't represent the manufactures of suboxone. I lose money on this site, but since I get so many incredible emails and "thank you's"... I keep stepping this site up and will continue to do so. I only hope that this site gives you just that..."hope".
Brian
info@suboxonetaper.com
Comments (218)
CB, I think you’ll get through it, but now that you know what you’re in for, bear this in mind: If you do end up going back to the subox doc, don’t just resume your normal 2mg a day, forever regimen. Stay with your commitment to quit. Ask for 2 pills, and that’s it. Cut down to 1mg a day, wait 3 days, then reduce to .5 mg a day, wait 2-3 days, and reduce to .25 mg a day, until the dose is too small to reduce. By the time you run out you’ll be weaned so low that your w/d will be mild and short-lived. ONLY do this if you KNOW you can’t go through with your present w/d, and are going to give up and go back to the doctor. I don’t doubt that you can do it, but only you know what you’re going to do. This advice is just in case you end up going back on, you can still salvage the situation with proper preparation. But by all means try your hardest to get through it. Stay busy if you can, try to have people around to keep your spirits up, don’t dwell on the discomfort of the w/d.
Keep your head up.
CB,
Here’s a link to the famous “thomas recipe” for getting through opiate withdrawal.
http://www.drugs.com/forum/featured-conditions/thomas-recipe-opiate-withdrawal-35169.html
If you have a few bucks you can get most of these products/supplements, etc. Hot showers and baths help.
“For the Recipe, You’ll need:
1. Valium (or another benzodiazepine such as Klonopin, Librium, Ativan or Xanax)… (not available for all and not recommended for all; use at your own risk. – jkr)
2. Imodium (over the counter, any drug or grocery store).
3. L-Tyrosine (500 mg caps) from the health food store.
4. Strong wide-spectrum mineral supplement with at least 100% RDA of Zinc, Phosphorus, Copper, Magnesium and Potassium (you may not find the potassium in the same supplement).
5. Vitamin B6 caps.
6. Access to hot baths or a Jacuzzi (or hot showers if that’s all that’s available).”
Much more at link.
CB,
All I can say is it won’t last forever, it will get better soon. It feels like eternity at first but think how fast a week, 2 weeks go by in your life. I wish you could make it go easier but you jumped from 2 mg which is still a pretty high dose, and you don’t seem to have anything to help you through the w/d, such as a benzo or sleep aid. If you can tough it out for another week you won’t regret it. Think to yourself, at least I’m not withdrawing from smack or oxy in a jail cell. You have a bed, a place to relax, your privacy. It’s a hard price we pay to get our bodies and minds back. But it’s a much higher price we pay during the years of using. I doubt my comments help with the pain you’re going through, but if you get through this you will be a stronger person for it free of this shit and proud of the accomplishment. Endure as much as you can, I think you’ll succeed.
I am on day 3 and in hell. It is nearly 2 am and I haven’t slept. I am so exhausted but every time I nod off I twitch myself awake. I keep asking myself if I really can do this. My doctor gave me allergy meds and told me to tough it out.
Cbr,
I just went through this starting around April 30th. Check back in the comments for my experience.
If you are stopping because you just can’t go on being dependent on drugs anymore, if you are determined to be done no matter what you have to go through, you can definitely do it. You may even find it easy and be relieved. However if you are unsure, or content to stay on the suboxone, if you have access to it, you might talk yourself into staying on when the fear and discomfort overtake you. I think the fear and shame of w/d is larger and more pressing than the physical symtpoms. People in hospitals are known to withdraw from serious painkillers, unaware that they are dependent. They assume they have a bad flu and just go with it. You can get through the physical w/d if you kill the psychological addiction/dependence. But you have to be doing this of your own accord, not just because you missed an appt and fear the w/d. Fear of the w/d will drive you back to drugs. You have to be of the mindset that continued dependence is worse than any w/d.
If you’re serious about quitting, then you’re doing it right, taking the w/d a little at a time. Try to stretch what you have as long as possible. As long as you have a little bit each day, like 1 mg or less, the crutch will keep you from freaking out as the body adjusts.
If you go through my posts in the comments section, I was more uncomfortable in the prep than after my last dose. I thought it was going to be hell, but it wasn’t even memorable. It was just boring, punctuated by stressful forebodings of how awful it was going to be.
Today’s day 23 and I’ve been sleeping fine for at least a week, without any drugs whatsoever. I used some old ambiens and klonopins I had during the first couple weeks (never more than 1/2 a pill daily as needed), which may have contributed to my general well being throughout the w/d. But it was nothing. I suffer more from boredom and emotional misgivings than any actual physical discomfort from w/d.
You, with a son and a busy schedule, might even breeze through it. Best wishes,
JKR
I am quitting suboxone after taking it for two years. I am down to a quarter sublingual a day and I’ll be out on wednesday. I am terrified. I have a son and a job that doesn’t allow me the time to recover. I have been waiting to take my dose until I experience withdrawals and they are horrible at 36 hours. The depression, anxiety, and forget restless legs- restless limbs is more like it. I feel emotionally fragile just during the withdrawal preparation time. Can I do this? I don’t know. I was actually content using suboxone. I just feel like I shouldn’t do it anymore. Will I change from a happy content woman into a crazy, emotional wreck? I don’t know how to get ready for this train wreck I’m forcing myself to experience. I’m really scared.
Day 15…
So today was definitely the day where I realized I felt good, whole, back to normal, back in control… I feel great.
You know you’re back in control when shit happens, circumstances, stressful bs, and you’re able to handle it and don’t fall apart, etc. You’re able to economize your resources, mental, emotional, etc. You’re back at the wheel, not just getting whipped around by events and victimized by life. It’s hard to put into words.
Anyway, so its fifteen days since my last dose, and the waiting to be back to normal feeling seems to be over. I don’t want to say anything premature, I just sense that I’m back to myself again and through w/ any w/d related crap. There’s always gonna be other crap, that’s life. But being able to handle it is the reward of ditching the drugs. It’s also the perverse incentive for starting them in the first place. But we know how that road goes…
Day 13…
God… Some emotional shit, getting clean. Seriously, in a good way. Literally your feeling comes back. All of a sudden you need people again, and realize that the people who need you, needed you all along — you weren’t there for them, all that time. You couldn’t be there for them, you didn’t need them, didn’t feel, didn’t understand feeling, and everything seemed fine.
People, you gotta quit this shit before it destroys your life. Every day being on a drug destroys your life another day, and if you’re not lucky you’ll keep it up until you’ve destroyed everything, and everything’s gone.
I don’t even mean doing horrible things, getting in trouble, wrecking relationships. I mean just the cold, emotionless, isolated blur drugs put you in, while the world goes on around you, years pile up. It might all go on entirely behind the cover of a smile… you might go through all the motions the whole time, never feeling anything amiss about it. You have no idea what you’re doing to your life and to the people who need you, behind his pleasant, empty cover and happy face you put on. You’re drilling holes in your heart, in the the foundations of your life, in everything you stand on.
The shit will collapse if you don’t put a stop to it before it can’t be repaired. Getting clean is really just a start. The repair work begins after you’ve gotten out of the blur.
JKR
Hey Susie… yeah it sounds like you were put into precipitated w/d with the buprenorphine/suboxone. Bupe has a stronger affinity to the brain’s opiate receptors and kicked the methadone out of it’s spot.
You said you were on a very low dose of suboxone. What is your dose? It sounds like you were kicked into w/d with the suboxone, and then had an inadequate sub dose for you to level off or feel stable on the suboxone.
Ideally you should have waited till you were in full blown w/d and then dosed the suboxone gradually, starting w/ 2 mg, waiting to see if you felt better, 30 min to an hour, and taking another 2 mg etc. until stable.
Then you should immediately begin a taper of the suboxone that is comfortable for you, etc.
The situation you’re in now is difficult to figure out. It sounds like your dose of suboxone might be too low, but don’t crank it up drastically. Have your Dr. increase your suboxone dose until you feel normal.
Then focus on reducing your suboxone dose over a set period… i.e., the suboxone taper schedule.
Thank U for yor site. Can you direct me to any experiences of going from methadone to suboxone? I’m on day 19 of that trade off. The Dr. prescribing is brand new to this medication. I know absolutely, I am a guinea pig for him. Methadone has an extremely long half life. I found that out after the Dr telling me it was ok to take bupe the day after taking methadone. I went through screaming hell for 9 hrs untill I took 20 mgs of valium. Anyone knowing the slightest about them knows you need to be in full blown w/d from the 1st drug. For methadone that’s a minimum of 48 hrs & ideally 72 hrs. The reason I went into all that is to let you know the desperation & insecurity I feel w/ this Dr. I’m in process of switching Drs, meanwile I am continuing to feel I’m in a plane w/o a pilot. I’m on a real sm. dosage which I also found out. I thought initally you were supposed to feel leveled out & at least by now. I’m feeling worse by the day. If it’s going to take me 3 mos to adjust o the bupe & then another couple of mos to come off the Suboxone f-k that shit! My thoughts are I could have done a detox off the methadone & cut out the middle man. Can you point me in the direction of the light. Not knowing what i’m up against is crazy making at this point. I wonder if I should just go off the mediation. My primary Dr. would help me with medical detox? I am believe it or not VERY active in Recovery, I haven’t drank or shot up foor 18 yrs, I did self medicate for a couple of mo.’s 6 yrs ago. I opted to take the done for pain management. Have never abused it, taken only a minimual dosage these last 4 yrs. I found U through suboxonetalkzone. I can’t find this info any where.
Day 12…
Very stressful past couple of days. Had a few drinks last night, sleep was light, and still, feel pretty decent today despite all. I don’t know if today will be some epiphany, Day 12 magic, but we’ll see. The day is young.
Meetings always make me feel better too! Especially if I’m in a really bad place, I can go to a meeting and forget all about what was bothering me. By sharing experience, strength and hope with people, I feel like all the addiction shit wasn’t for nothing. There are others that I can help from my own experience…and vice versa! Also the steps have given me a totally new, better outlook on life. My quality of life is 100% better!
Jkr, yeah I have to attend 3 meetings a week. Some of them aren’t too bad but others I don’t care for. And i’m the same way, I’m independant. You can check some out and you don’t have to say anything. Sometimes when I just really wanna “bitch about shit” lol I go to a meeting and it makes me feel better. Let me know what u decide to do. Peace & Love!
Congrats Paul,
could be the spring pollen. been sneezing a lot.
Still opiate free here too…must be about 7 weeks now.
Feeling pretty normal except I have had a cough for about 4 weeks. Could be allergies. The opiates probably masked it. Anyone else have this?
Woke up today feeling almost completely good. Sleep was light but okay, took a shower, feeling decent.
Tcs, I thought about that leading up to the taper, thinking it would be much harder to go through. I even thought I would need a quitting partner to be miserable w/ and wait on each other, lol. I guess I might still check it out. Do you have any experiences w/ them? Even during my subox treatment, every now and then the doc would ask if I’m getting counseling, meetings, etc., not really pushing it, like he just had to ask from time to time. I’ve always been averse to the idea.
If I find it difficult to stay clean I wouldn’t hesitate to get involved w/ na, but I’ve always had an independent streak, always caused and always resolved my own problems on my own, it would feel weird to stop now.
But then again I know nothing about na, etc. It could just be my ignorance talking.
Jkr, glad to see ur doing good! I stopped counting days since I’ve last took a sub & I’m back to myself. Sleeping 8 hours a night, don’t have the chills/goosebumps anymore, and can feel again! Lifes great! You should attend some na meetings in your area to help you vent. You can find meetings in your area on the narcotics anonymous website. Hope that helps ya! Peace & Love! TCS
Day 9…
Slept good. Took a flexeril muscle relaxant and it did the trick. But felt weak/tired throughout the day. Bad aches from working out. Cold feeling throughout the day. Doubt I’ll use the flex again, think it hangs you over.
Little motivation, general feeling of weakness. Nothing bad as far as w/d symptoms. Just feeling worn down.
Day 8…
Again, not very good sleep. Mostly the feeling of floating on the surface film of sleep, very fleeting. No complaints thought, I definitely got some. I woke up and dealt with it as I have been. By MOVING, long walks, fresh air, sun, and the like. You know, that nature stuff.
Even without the full deep sleep, I don’t feel lousy for lack of it during the day. At least not today. The body has an amazing ability to adjust itself, adapt to conditions. If anything the nightly lack of full sleep will accumulate, and one night you’ll sleep long and good. Brian described this in his Day 11. I’m not there yet, but its inevitable, the body will adjust.
Just staying optimistic and grateful, knowing tomorrow will be better than today, and my body will be mine again. Listen to you body, its a lot older and wiser than your head. That’s something I’ve learned.
yep, Brian. that’s the way of it. it’s pretty cool to see em after years of pinpoints.
JKR,
I got shit from close friends saying / asking (while I was getting better) “Brian, you ok? Your pupils seem to be really dialated”… They were questioning what was going on and if I was really cool. I noticed at the time when I was getting better that my pupils were obviously super huge at night but also at times during the day. Just wanted to toss my 2 cents in. Keep kicking ass!
Brian
SubxoneTaper.com
Day 7 cont…
i sounded like a bitch before, i really shouldn’t have complained.
i have nothing but eternal gratitude for being done w/ the subs. for the most part i was dosing intranasally, and if that went on i could have destroyed my septum the way cokeheads do. i have no business complaining about slight irritations after all i did to dig myself this hole. this experience should by all rights be 10 x harder.
i’m skating pretty free on this w/d experience, and will dispense with any self-pity on account of it.
i don’t know about others here, but i’m doing this alone. i have no support system, no one knows but me. not about the using, and not the quitting. it’s all on me. that’s a strange thing, and most people, most users even, probably wouldn’t relate. that’s why this site helps. it let’s me talk and vent about my thoughts and feelings on the w/d and the drug experience in general.
suboxone is great, but i should never have taken it as long as i did. i should have done this – and could have – at any point after my mental link w/ opiates was broken. but i kept on doing it because that was the easy thing, the path of least resistance. i was caught up in life and didn’t want to face up to the reality.
it went on and on for me until i didn’t want to do anything, knowing i was dependent on a substance, until circumstances gave me no choice but to stop.
nothing kills like putting off the inevitable until it lands right on you, and then realizing how easy and doable it was all along, if only i had the balls to do it.
i would advise anyone in a position to stop the subs to do so sooner than later. but like Brian says, only if you’ve totally severed any ties to opiates.
Day 7…
Today kind of sucked. I tried sleeping last night without anything and it sucked. I really didn’t get any true sleep, just in and out surface sleep. Not sleep without dreams, but dreams without sleep.
Still got up and did some exercise etc., had some food, bu laid down and passed out a couple hrs being so tired. The sleep thing is killer because I don’t want to keep using ambien at night and risk dependence.
I’m gonna keep trying to sleep each night without anything, one of these days I’ll be at that point where natural sleep comes back. I hear its one of the last w/d symptoms to give. And lack of sleep is probably what makes the days so unbearable for some during w/d.
thanks, dan. you bet.
Glad you are okay and hanging in there jkr! Keep us posted with your experience.
Day 6…
Same as yesterday, just got to get up and move. The more you move, the better you feel. The worst thing now is boredom. Keeping occupied, but with what?
What if all your old friends and the old places are part of what you gave up when you gave up drugs? Lucky if you have new ones, a decent job, things to keep you occupied. I guess that’s the next step after leaving drugs behind.
Old habits die hard. The inertia I described in my first posting here has to be overcome. While on suboxone I lost all will to do anything, because I felt “stuck,” as I described. Now I’m unstuck, and bored as hell.
Drugs destroy any kind of a “long view,” plans, looking ahead and building toward something. It destroys the capacity for duration. Every thought and act gravitates around the next dose, buy, or rx.
You lose the ability to put long term goals foremost and small every day acts in its service. That’s something I guess that has to be re-learned.
I think doubt is the biggest killer. The doubt you’re left with after you’ve left the crutch behind. Doubt about your future ability to live toward something and not on a daily drug punch-clock. Of course this never was a problem before the drugs, it was just living life.
Here’s to getting on with life…
Day 5 and still fine.
Keep active however you can, gym, sports, treadmill, long walks, whatever. Keeps away the cold. Is there anything more unfamiliar than feeling cold? And yet how normal and natural it was before the drug. Are we here confusing normal feelings w/ w/d, to some extent?
We forget that life entails ups and downs, pains and pleasures, coldness and warmth, i.e., variation. Being on pills makes us forget that we have to MOVE to be alive, to feel alive. You, me, all us users, and all mankind knows this to be so. We only forget it when a pill is all it takes to feel sublime, or, at least STABLE. Stability is anything but normal. Variation is normal.
On pills, you wake up, your body is warm without even moving. You can walk through spring, fall, even winter in a tank top. Is that normal? Life moves itself, it has to move, to feel alive, otherwise it’s not life.
Don’t confuse the normal ups and downs and variations of living life, of a working body, with withdrawal symptoms. At least not necessarily.
Also, even without the pills, most of us would feel like hell if we’d spent 2, 3, 4 years totally inactive, totally unattuned to the needs and signals of our bodies.
Part of drug abuse is the loss of ability to cope, to cope with life’s ups and downs, to adjust oneself emotionally, to respond to the mental and physical demands of our environments.
An example is smoking cigarettes. How many of us went from a few a day to 2 packs during our flirtation with opiates? That’s no coincidence. Our body was unable to warn us, to signal us to STOP. Opiates aren’t even the worst in that regard, stimulants are. They cut off all BRAKES on destructive behaviors.
Another thing. How many of us used to be able to sleep 10, even 12 hrs on suboxone? And how often did that final dose of the day allow us to stay awake well passed when our bodies would have tired out. Don’t confuse less sleep post-suboxone necessarily with w/d. Use a sleep aid if you can, or if you must, but let’s not miss too much the dead zombie sleep of the subs. It’s not natural.
For me the only notable changes since ceasing suboxone 5 days ago has been the alteration in cool and warmth in my body depending on my level of activity, and, of course, the weather. And second, the occasional interruption in sleep. Still, I sleep enough.
I believe the key is in the taper. The taper allows you to run the gamut of the w/d piecemeal and moderated, so that when you jump, a few night’s sleep and a few active days will get you over the bridge.
Good luck to anyone getting ready to jump. I’ve dreaded this for over 2 years, and here I am doing it and feeling great. More important than physically, mentally great, i.e., FREE. I know it’s over.
Well its day 4 off the subs and i’ve been working out, pushing myself, sleeping and eating good. i’m still waiting for the w/d symptoms to start, to be honest.
after all, what was i really giving up… a .20 dose a day? i think most of the w/d occurred during the period of taper. that’s when i was most uncomfortable, waking up nights, cold and having to wait for morning to flip the switch (dose) to get out of bed. before i’d even take a shower i’d take my dose.
now i wake up rested, feeling fine, thanks maybe to the klonopin. but i feel fine throughout the day, especially toward the evening, etc., after having been up a while, exercised, gotten the body’s juices running.
i may still be in for something, what i don’t know, but i haven’t felt a single real w/d symptom since stopping and being on the klonopin. i really think the anxiety is so much of it, the inability to cope with it.
again, no w/d symptoms after 4 days.
great site guys this oxymen would love to meet him just to put my hands around his throat, addicts are special people i dont know any of u, but my heart goes out to u all, just got off of subs and did it in jail not easy but i can cry again and feel
come what may, i’ve never been so proud to have pupils. ahh, the little things in life.
i have a little theory of why w/d experiences are so widely despirate from one person to the next.
it has to do with why we use in the first place. some of us use for recreation, partying, and are otherwise normal, happy people. others get drawn in due to injury and are in too deep before they know what happened. then there are the self-medicaters, the people who already had depression, anxiety, etc., BEFORE ever touching opiates. this group is most important for understanding the vast difference in handling and experiencing w/d between users.
for the latter group, so much of the w/d pain is mental, psychological; re-emergence of the improperly treated anxiety/depression, etc., compounded by the physical pain and symptoms accompanying w/d.
for the first two groups, w/d is largely just a physical event. for the latter group, it is a deep descent into hell and social paralysis, where even being alone by oneself is agony and wrought with fears, doubts, and thoughts of the blackest gloom… regrets, self-loathing, fear that you will never again even be your old, imperfect self.
for the first two groups, w/d likely comes set with family, spousal or social support; positive reinforcement and a positive attitude. for the latter group, it is a lonely, dreary business, a cross we feel we have to bear, alone, dreading the first onset of symptoms.
i’m not sure which group i fit into-i’ve had my successes and overcomings in my day, but i definitely have some of the characteristics of the latter group. and so i understand them.
it is for this latter group that i would recommend considering the use (short term) of an anti-anxiety med as you take the plunge, it may make all the difference.
this little analysis should help shed some light on the widely differing reports of experiences w/ w/d, apart from questions of technique, tapering, etc… and may put to rest some of the arguing and back and forth bitching about how easy/tough the experience is.
every individual is a vastly different cocktail of chemicals and firing neurons, vastly differently wired brains, each living in a completely different world, whether we realize it or whether we remain totally ignorant of it.
JKR
oh yeah, and kill all coffee intake during w/d. shit makes you sweat profusely.
hey friends,
this is a little premature, being only day 2 since my last dose (.20 or less) but i wanted to give an update.
i decided to go ahead and use my small stash of klonopin to help w/ sleep and anxiety, and i will say i feel absolutely fine. i’ve been to the gym, been very active the past week, running, lifting, etc.
i may be in the clear, or i may be in for some shit as the residual/half-life thing kicks in on day 3. but i did taper to super low doses over the past 2 weeks. and i think the sleep, the exercise, and the anxiolytic effect of the klonopin are gonna get me over the hump during the next 7 days. i’m gonna ditch the klonopin by day 7.
i don’t mean to cop out by using a benzo, i know its not an option for everyone, but i really just want to be done finally with all forms of opiate-bondage.
we shall see how it goes. either way, i will keep everyone updated.
p.s. my pupils are finally back.
This site is so much different then the others and reading the posts have helped me decide to taper the proper way. I have found other forums see to have a lot of drama & fighting which never seems to get anywhere. I have been on methadone and 120mgs of roxies for pain for almost 4 years. I tapered that down to get on subutex and switched over to OC 80′s for 6 weeks. As of April 5 I was started on 24mgs a day which I felt was waaay too much so I am now down to 10mgs for the last week and dropping a 1/4 a week. My husband has been in prison for the last 2 1/2 years and will be coming home on May 24 which by that time I am hoping to jump and he can help with our 2 year old while I get through the worst of it. My question is one that someone else asked and it is…Would it be bad during the first few days after the jump to take a lortab something not that powerful to ease the pain? It could be taking me back in circles but someone had mentioned it elsewher and it sounded like it would help. I have severe anxiety & already take xanax (don’t care for them) so I am thinking of something to help with that which I think will be my biggest problem as since being on the subutex I still have the rocking legs and panic feelings from the anxiety I deal with. It has been a rough couple years & I needed to get off the pain meds so my husband would not be around them. I am going to have to find other ways to manage the pain so any thoughts would be appreciated.
Brian, your whole ordeal was a great thing to post as most sites scare you to death but you kept it real and I know it won’t be easy but at the same time I won’t die like most others try and make it out to be. Methadone is the worst withdrawal I wanted to shoot myself so went back on it after a month of hell 2 years ago & I truly want to be free of all this crap and feel myself again!
Thanx,
Candle
jkr- dude this is just me, but I would stay away from any narcotics/pills. I tried suboxone in the past, and when I got off of it, I thought opiates were my only problem, so I kept using other pills/narcotics. Well, one day, I could not find any of the other substances I was taking-and guess what- I relapsed on opiates HARDCORE. It got way worse than ever before. So this time around I stayed away from ALL addictive drugs, and guess what, I’m still clean, sober and clear headed. I would not recommend flushing those other pills and just tough it out……but thats just my advice.
oh and btw, my friend used to give me xanax bars all the time and i found them to be incredibly un-addicting. almost no effect from them, other than sleep beyond a certain threshold. but at that time i was using adderall too, which is a mix of amphetamine salts. maybe i was too wired to feel the effect of the xanax. i would caution anyone to stay away from adderall and any other amphets. it’s an easy kick if you decide to stop but in the mean time it has a terrible effect on your lifestyle, sleeping, eating, etc. you feel real great while your body and health deteriorate and collapse beneath you without noticing it.
Hey all,
I’m getting very close to zero hour. I have a small crumb, perhaps .50 – .75 mg of suboxone left. I think it will give me two doses, one tomorrow and one sunday.
That will be 14 days of doses from my last 8mg sub. The first 4 days were 1 mg a day, and the next 10 were the remaining 4 mg half. I guess my jump off dose will be between .25 and .40 mg.
I went rummaging through some old boxes from my drug days, to see what I might have to help me with the w/d’s, and discovered that I have a number of 2 mg klonopin and a number of 10 mg ambien. I’ve never used either drug, just managed to collect such things in the course of my life using opiates.
My question is, would anyone recommend using ambien or klonopin during the w/ds if they get bad, or to sleep. And if so, what dose, how long, etc?
Thanks.
Corey,
Fuckin glad to hear all is going good dude. Just some positive words to keep you going; by day 35 everything you’re going thru now will be a blur… It’s a good thing…but also hold on to that memory though of how shitty times were or had been so you don’t repeat the same shit twice.
You’re on the right page bro… Keep it rolling, kick all this shit to the curb and put the past behind you and keep rolling strong.
Talk to you soon,
Brian
Sacred Mommy-if you took your last dose five days ago and still feel like you are okay to make it to day 12, I would just wait it out if at all possible. But if you are having cravings to use opiates again, then I would get back on it until you get the help you need to deal with cravings. Be strong and hang in there! Hope this helps you some.
Hey Brian~
I had been on opiates for about 8 yrs, came clean cold turkey for 9 months! I am an army wife & my soldier came up on orders to deploy which sent me into relapse for 2 months then I went on methadone for a year, what a joke! I’ve been on subs for a year. I started my taper a few weeks ago but 7-10 days ago I got really sick & have only taken 1 & that was 5 days ago. Should I start taking them again or should I just continue to stay off to FINALLY be off of this shit for good? Somebody please help me! I’m bipolar & they have me on meds for that & they won’t work like they r supposed to while on the subs. It has saved my life & I feel ready to be off. I’ll take advice from anybody that will help :)
This site has really given light to an endless tunnel!
*** Good Luck to all going through this***
Keep at it jkr you might be in the clear if you keep taking crumbs like that. And Paul- I hope that you are doing very well with your recovery process. I’m assuming oxyman is an internet troll, and if we ignore him and not respond to his Bullshit, he will eventually go away. I’m surprised Brian has not blocked him as spam. This is a place of recovery.
it’s amazing how long you can stretch these pills out when you know you’re done for good when you run out. tapering becomes a self-adjusting process where you just naturally take the absolute min. you need not to feel like total shit, and suddenly you’re only taking a couple .25 crumbs a day and sleeping through the partial withdrawals. every couple days you need less in the morning than you did previously, because during the night your body did without.
my last 8mg sub has lasted at least 8 days so far, and i’ve got a good 3rd of it left. i’m hoping by the time i’m totally out i’ll only feel like crap for a few days. cross that bridge when i get to it.
Oxyman,
What an ignorant display of sociopathic behavior. Hope you enjoy life as it will be — jail time while your girlfriend (obviously you would not commit to marriage, you pathetic slug on the state) raises the kids alone or with another real man’s help. You are a bottom feeding piece of shit who I would skin given the chance — you are an ignorant fuck, to put it lightly…one who can find no other source of income besides that the drug trade — you’re an assclown cockbite.
O And Paul , I haven’t heard the term smack used in a while for dope but thanks for the laughs. Keep crying ,your tears bring me joy
Omg u guys make me laugh so god damn much. Thank you for wasting your time to read what I write on here. Do you really think I give two shits what u dope pheens think of me. Your pathetic reactions make me want to post more shit just for shits n gigs.so here ,spend another five minutes of your life reading what I have to say. hahahahahahaha this is too much fun for me. Keep crying pheens. I hope you all develop cancer from all them pills you eat. If you need some good dope, head out to queens ,NYC and come cop at the spot, my man could always use another pheen. Hahaha ,o and paul anytime you wAnna come thru lemme know.smack the shit out you twice and that’s before I start cursin.bye friends(pheens) whatever you prefer, sincerly your biggest fan da oxyman
Thanks Corey….you inspire me to keep going. I know ur in it right now but your allmost through it. Im approaching 4 weeks and its much much easier than day 13 so hang in there.
paul,
hey bro, don’t let that dude get to you bro. i look at this sight for inspiration and hope of a better future without a dependance of opioids. thanks alot for your input.
and dan, thanks alot for the vote of hope and encouragment, every little bit helps
its day 13 guys. It feels like an emotional roller coaster. one day im humming zippity fuckin doo dah and the next day, just blah! dont wanna be bothered and just a real shitty mood. i am gratefull still tho.
corey
Oxyman, some of us work for a living and have insurance so we could easily afford sub maintenance. Sorry your welfare ass had to suck cock for bags of heroin and then get the poor boy sub detox. Clearly your still messed up from that. You can knock me for being on Zoloft but you clearly need something much stronger. I guess we should all apologize to you for being able to afford our medications.
Yeah Oxyman ur so fuckin hard. I can tell you got a lot to prove. Let me guess…llittle man syndrome?? No pill for that eh? Just act like your a hardass online and maybe someone will believe it. Your a real fuckin success story. Clearly you are unbalanced and require medication. You should have stayed on smack…in your case you might have been a better person.